Kansas Child Support Forum
General Kansas Child Support Discussions => Kansas Child Support Guidelines => Topic started by: Shan1 on October 23, 2014, 08:00:29 PM
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Recently my Step-daughter decided she wants to do dance classes. Currently, the kid's grandfather pays for their regular extra-curricular activities and he doesn't want to pay for another one (and plans to stop paying for them in the coming years). The kid's Mom is the "primary residential" parent and we have them a little over 60% of the time. (We are currently moving forward with trying to change to shared physical custody and 50-50 parenting time, which we had up until two months ago).
Anyway, my fiance pays child support and they share expenses 50-50 (all, not just medical). He brought up her dance classes to see if she would split them with him and she stated she "can't afford it". She pays $0 for extra-curriculars.
So, my question is, if we go ahead and sign her up for dance and pay for all of it (and most likely all of their other activities once their grandpa wants to stop paying), does that give us a discount on child support in any way? My impression is that the primary residential parent pays for extra-curriculars because they are receiving child support. So, if she doesn't pay, do we just have to deal with that? We are willing to pay because it's good for my SD, but it would be nice if that was calculated in somehow...
Thank you.
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This issue/question has been hotly debated on this site on many occasions.
Enter the words expenses, extraordinary or direct expenses into the search box to find the other relevant threads.
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KTM,
I have read over the forum and my understanding is that if there is a primary residential parent receiving child support, that parent is responsible for activities. However, everything I've read seems to refer to activities that the kids have already been doing (not a new activity) and it's been the primary residential parent asking for funds. In this case, it's the non-primary residential parent initiating the activity. I suppose there may be an assumption built in that the primary residential parent would typically be in charge of the kid's activities but that has never been the case for us.
So, as the non-primary residential parent initiating an activity, in theory I'm guessing the residential parent would still be responsible for paying? Does the primary residential parent have the right to refuse based on "I can't afford it"?
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Search "Direct Expenses" on this site.
The threads will show debates about what falls under the definition of a "Direct Expense" which is the legal responsibility of the primary/Child Support recipient to pay. In my interpretation/opinion activities outside of school are not included as a direct expense unless specifically Ordered by the Court. Even if the activity is ongoing vs. new.
Everything else is, in my opinion, negotiated between the parents.
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I agree with KTM that this particular topic has been discussed many times here. I will have to defer to bmull, one of our expert members. He has said before that the data the child support guidelines are based on includes all costs for raising a child. Therefore, costs such as school related expenses and those for other activities outside of school are all included in the child support amount. Everyone has their opinions on the matter, but I would consider bmull an expert on this subject since the state has considered him as such.
I've seen courts order the child support recipient who is also receiving support for direct expenses be responsible for all extracurricular activities (in this case basketball and soccer). So, I think the courts include these types of activities in the child support obligation.
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Guru,
Mr. Mull petitioned the Child Support committee to accept non expert members/ ordinary citizens onto the committee. They made changes to the committee membership and added civilian members. He is now one of them who gets to be the voice of the public or our representative. There was an application & selection process for this appointment.
Mr. Mull is not an expert per se. He is an actively involved and informed citizen member intended to represent the concerns and views of the rest of us non experts in creating the next version of the Kansas Child Support Guidelines. I would expect him to be informed and to have an opinion. His opinion is not, on this particular topic, consistent with the intention or the interpretation of Kansas Courts. That is why this topic is still under debate. I am hopeful that the next version of the guidelines will contain specific statements clarifying this issue.
The current Guidelines are unclear on this matter and the data Mr. Mull has quoted on this site in supporting his position does not support his claims that extracurricular activities are to be paid by the Child Support recipient from Child Support payments or out of pocket.
The Kansas Courts do not defer to Mr. Mull's position.
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@KTM, that is just your opinion. I didn't say the courts respect bmull's opinions, but there are many who do. The fact of the matter is that the courts are required to enforce laws and uphold case law. Is there anyone you would consider to be an expert on this matter?
@Shan1, there is a court of appeals opinion which was published in 2001 which may help you.
http://www.kscourts.org/Cases-and-Opinions/opinions/ctapp/2001/20010706/85128.htm (http://www.kscourts.org/Cases-and-Opinions/opinions/ctapp/2001/20010706/85128.htm)
Based on the opinion, if the parents cannot agree to participate in the activity, the party deciding to incur the expense may be saddled with the expense. So, I guess what I'm saying is there would be no discount on child support unless both parents agree to incur the expense. However, in the case of custody other than shared, the parent receiving child support would quite possibly be required to pay.
This would not preclude you from making the argument to the court though. Sometimes if the court finds that the activity is in the best interest of the child and both parents are participating in the activity, both parents may be held financially responsible. Shared custody is a unique matter for sure.
Attorney fees and court costs are rather expensive. How much does dance cost? Would it be more cost effective to pay for the dance for now and then see if mom cooperates? Usually, when child support matters go to court, many other topics arise including changes of custody, so be prepared to defend yourself in that costly battle.
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Guru - Some of what I stated is fact and some is my opinion. So, let me be clear.
FACT 1. There is no data in print as offered by anyone posting on this site or as stated in the current Kansas Child Support Guidelines that allocates extra curricular activities by the child as determined by previous participation or as newly enrolled by either parent are the financial responsibility of the Child Support Recipient. Nor are they included as "Direct Expenses" within the US Census data used to complete the Kansas Child Support calculations. This is why no one has ever posted a specific page or paragraph for reference.
FACT 2. The process by which and for which Mr. Mull would become a citizen participant "advisory member" and not an expert member of the Kansas Child Support Guidelines formation committee for the next version of the guidelines (not the current version) is as previously stated. Presuming he has in fact been selected.
http://cjonline.com/news/2013-05-06/kansas-seeks-applicants-child-support-panel
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=fp4bDFB%2bsG1BXhwNiPXsmA4jnTbEBV%2fRVhDBrhhtXTI%3d
http://www.kscourts.org/Rules-procedures-forms/Child-support-guidelines/review.asp
FACT 3. There have been no Kansas Child Support Committee meeting minutes posted since October of 2011. So, it is possible they have not met since then. http://www.kscourts.org/Rules-procedures-forms/Child-Support-Guidelines/PDF/Committee-Minutes-May-28-2010.pdf
http://kscourts.washburnlaw.edu/Rules-Procedures-Forms/Child-support-guidelines/2012_CSG/default.asp
FACT 4. None of the posted meeting minutes state or list Mr. Mull as a member of the Kansas Child Support Guidelines Advisory Committee
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http://www.kscourts.org/kansas-courts/supreme-court/orders/2014/2014SC21.pdf
April 2014 appointments to the Kansas Child Support Advisory Committee
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Part of the reason I still asked this question (even though it has been discussed previously on this site) is that, although there generally seems to be agreement that extra-curricular activities are included in direct expenses, there are also disagreements about this, which is very clear from the response I am getting here.
I'd love to see data on what judges are ruling about this. I've heard of judges ruling all sorts of different ways but some of that is also coming from the Missouri courts. For anyone else reading this that has my same question, my partner recently went to mediation and during that, the mediator (This is a Jo-co court appointed mediator) offered to explain to his ex "how direct expenses works". She stated that extracurricular activities ARE included in direct expense, and, since he is paying her child support, technically she is responsible for all of the costs. Our lawyer has confirmed the same. When my SD asked to have dance class twice a week, my partner asked our lawyer what he should do and he suggested signing her up, assuming Mom would agree to it and ask her to pay for it. This is not how my partner proceeded, but it's what the lawyer suggested.
We have not gone to court about this but are hoping things will resolve in mediation. All of Mom's inappropriate actions have been clearly motivated by money so hopefully when faced with the reality of court fees, lawyer fees, a guardian for the kids, and possibly ending up paying support to my partner, she will be willing to compromise.
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I think some clarification in the guidelines to specifically define certain direct and indirect expenses would go a long way to helping avoid all these questions. After reading through these posts it seems the question isn't necessarily what is included as direct expenses as much as maybe what happens in shared direct expenses when both parents can't agree. You have a direct expense sharing order from what I gather. I agree with other comments that sometimes it works better for the family if one parent simply pays for it without causing a fuss. Expenses always come up and parents have to understand that fighting about every little cost just causes more problems for everyone.
I'm not going to get into the committee membership discussion other than to say I did not petition the committee for a special position. Actually several hundred parents across the state of Kansas were concerned that there was no parent representation on the committee so they wanted to join. If someone wants to learn more about that process, I will be glad to share, but that should probably be a separate thread.