Kansas Child Support Forum
Kansas Parenting Time and Custody => General Discussions => Topic started by: stiwary2002 on November 16, 2012, 12:11:59 PM
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Hi,
My case is like my wife filled a PFA on Aug01 and the I filled for divorce on Sep17. Both the cases were pulled together with the divorce judge in Johnson County court. Then on Oct25 she took her PFA case back.
My wife's attorney filled a motion for temporary support and a hearing is scheduled for that. Currently kids are living with my wife since Aug01 and I have no access to the kids. Although I am able to see them in school and games after October25.
My questions are:
1. How a Judge going to decide about Child Support when the child custody is not decided yet.
2. What is the probability a Judge can give 50-50 custody after the game my wife played of PFA?
Any answer in this regard is highly appreciated. My motion is scheduled for next week.
Thanks,
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1.) the judge can and will decide child support regardless of custody/parenting time. He/she simply "assumes" that reasonable parenting time will occur. Reasonable parenting time is usually defined as one night/week and every other weekend or something like that. Of course once parenting time is decided or changes, the child support can change. You can file a motion to change the temporary order at any time. If you don't like it and you don't want to wait for other hearing, you can file to change the temporary order and it will go in front of a judge. Of course you better have a good reason and be able to argue your point very well.
2.) 50/50 or "shared residency" will depend on a number of factors. One of which is what court you are in and what that judge thinks about shared residency. You can probably just go watch a few cases and see how that might go. Usually they are either for it or against it. It will depend on the location of your residence relative to mother's. If its too far, shared residency isn't reasonable.
PFAs and PFSs are a card that is played by one or both parents in a very high percentage of cases. These are usually set to begin as high-conflict cases. A parent does this to paint a bad picture of the other parent. BUT, it can also backfire. From what I've heard, judges and case managers will take a PFA into consideration, but really don't look at it too much.
The reason PFAs don't hold a whole lot of weight is because it doesn't take anything to get one. All you have to do is go to the court, fill out a piece of paper with allegations (no proof required), then take it to the judge and ask him to sign it. Then you file it and have it served on the other party. So you could have been a model father, but your wife wanted to have the upper hand, so she filed a PFA, filed first with the court so she was able to set the temporary order, and took the kids.
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Thanks Guru for your kind reply. My case is in Johnson County court DIV # 17. Judge is K Ryan.
My wife has got the attorney from NGO called safehome and she is playing all nasty games against me.
So it looks like I need to file a counter claim for Temporary support with my parenting Plan (i.e. 50-50) shared custody.
I also took the apartment in the same school district so residence does not become an issue.
Also my history is to take the kids school, doctors, all their games, vacation every year. She never participated into these in past. Even now also my kids are being picked up by coach or some parent. she does not have car nor she drives it when i was there with her.
So i hope these things should be considered by the judge.
I will appreciate if you can guide me the best thing to do at this point in time.
Thanks a lot in advance.
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I think you may want to review this post:
http://kschildsupportforum.com/general-discussions/johnson-county-family-law-guidelines/ (http://kschildsupportforum.com/general-discussions/johnson-county-family-law-guidelines/)
You should read these guidelines thoroughly. I think Johnson and Shawnee counties are some of the worst places in the state of KS to order shared residency. Everyone I've talked to from those counties describes a less than ideal court experience. It may have something to do with the very high concentration of attorneys and judges in those areas.
You are most likely in for a very bumpy ride for a while. You may not want to get your hopes up that the court will simply grant you any kind of custody just because you tell them so. Moms usually get the benefit of the doubt and do have custody most of the time. I'm not sure where you live relative to your ex, but if you don't live very close, then 50/50 custody may not be a worth-while fight. Instead you may want to consider having primary residency instead. You can always ask for more, then concede to take less later on. This approach is taken by a number of attorneys.
Here's some points you might consider:
1.) you live in the school district, mom doesn't. Kids will spend an unnecessarily extended amount of time in the car every day and will be required to get out of bed earlier. The kids also can't ride the bus.
2.) you have a car and have been the one taking the kids to obligations for years and you know their routine. You'll have to describe exactly why mom didn't do this. Maybe mom worked late, or maybe mom was busy watching tv, or maybe mom doesn't have a driver's license. I don't know the situation.
3.) the children have a stronger bond with you and have been taken out of their normal routines now and they need to be back to normal.
You are fighting that temporary order. The reason divorced parents all try to get the first punch and serve papers on their ex is because they have the upper hand in court. Once that temporary order is issued, its usually set until the resolution of the trial. You can motion to change the temporary order, but you'll need to show good cause. The court will be reluctant to change custody without hearing all the evidence. So, the longer the kids stay with mom, the more that temporary order becomes the new status quo. This works against you every time. The kids will learn to get along fine without you, they will loose the bond with you, and mom's new boyfriend then comes into the picture.
These are simply my opinions so take them for what they're worth. I've never been accused of sugar coating anything, so I'm just calling it like I see it. I think you're going to need a very experienced (40+) female attorney. You'll probably need to start building a case with evidence and be prepared for a very expensive trial.
There is an alternative in KS called limited case management, if you choose to do that.
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Guru,
1. There may be some confusion regarding the definition of legal terms. Custody is not the same as Parenting time. Almost ALL cases result in joint custody rights being established. Parenting time which is linked to Child Support is variable.
2. Safehome is a Domestic Violence shelter in Johnson County and they do not play games. stiwary2002 stated that Mom's attorney is employed by Safehome and they carefully select their cases as their service is provided for FREE. stiwary2002 may not recognize his behavior as being abusive. It may well be a situation where intervention and education for Domestic Abuse will be helpful to the children involved. What Dad has described here in terms of limited involvement by the mother might be interpreted as evidence of Domestic Abuse in the sense of an extremely controlling party.
3. The PFA allows for some distance to be established between the filer and the recipient in order to establish a zone of safety and in hope of decreasing the emotional volitility between the parties.
4. In your reply you are advising a potentially abusive person to take parenting time away from the other parent and establish why they are the better parent. That is absolutely the opposite of what the Courts will be wanting to see and is an abusive Legal position.
5. stiwary2002 is not fighting a temporary order. He sated that it was "taken back" on October 25th.
Be careful what you advise and insense other people to do.
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Thanks Guru for being so nice and giving your best advise to me. I believe that
sometimes criticism also helps you to take the right decision. So I like the
comment of KTM as well.
I have meet with around8--10 peoples so far and they also have the PFA in their
cases. Wife takes it back just before the day of hearing. So to me it looks like
a trend of women while going for divorce. Even couple of attorneys also gave
some comment like this is first step of Divorcing process of cheaper peoples. So even now i am not surprised.
When it comes to NGO, I believe that any woman can reach to them with some sort
of issues and then it becomes part of their job to fight the case for those
women. they do not have any quality process where they will filter the case
based on some truth or understanding. These NGOs need money from the government
and they can get it based upon how many cases they are fighting or fought in the
past. Definitely their attorney is neither a Judge nor a person who will justify the cases. Their job is to fight the cases so that her job can also run smoothly.
Anyway in my case I took a Jr. attorney and he is going to file two motions one for change in temporary support and another for 50--50 custody.
Let me see how judge takes it decide on nov27. I will keep you updated. All the suggestions are most welcome till then.
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A PFA does not need to be filed for there to be a Legal advantage in a Divorce or Custody case.
Simply filing for Divorce first in the state of Kansas gives the filing party first right to stay in the marital residence and file a temporary parenting plan. That is the legal advantage. As I understand it, the respondent to a Divorce filing can be asked to leave the marital residence and this wold be enforced by authorities.
stiwary2002 - What you believe about the process Safehome uses to select the cases they will represent in court is false. Your statements about how the process works, who funds the attorney and how the attorney's effectiveness is measured are false. Safehome is not set up to represent all clients in Divorce proceedings or for any other legal matter. Safehome only represents women and children who are victims of Domestic Abuse and help them to start a new life free from the abuser. Understand that the Judge assigned to your case will know this too.
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I just expressed my understanding based upon my experience.
You are a expert and senior member here, your views will be definitely based upon the experience you gained from different peoples.
I think there is no end to it that I can say my version of story and my wife can say her version of story.
The good thing is that this is going to end now soon and we both will have a good life here on.
I am not sure if this will make any impact on Judge and his decision if the case is being argued by a NGO attorney or a regular attorney.
Let me see how it goes and will come back on this.
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@stiwary, let me just ask this question. Before the divorce was there ever abuse (verbal or physical) in the home which required the police to visit your residence? Before the divorce had either your ex or yourself ever filed for a PFA or PFS for any kind of abuse?
@KTM, I'm fully aware of the difference custody and parenting time. According to Chapter 38 of KSA, custody can refer to physical or legal. In this case I have referred to physical custody, which is equivalent to parenting time or visitation. I will agree with you that unless the court determines otherwise, most parents have joint legal custody which gives them the right to any record and to equally make any decision for their child.
PFAs are many times used as a tactic to gain the upper hand, and it does work. Filing first and becoming the petitioner, is an advantage too. This case will be an uphill battle. I don't know how many times I've seen it.
My advice would be to not put everything in the hands of your attorney. Many tell you one thing until they get your money, then you get the truth about what is really going to happen. They also will not play hardball with another attorney because they all have to go to lunch later. Keep a very close eye on your attorney, keep track of their hours and how long your phone calls are with them, talk to other attorneys in the meantime to get more opinions. Remember that your attorney works for you, so if you don't like it, fire them. There are plenty of them out there. They are all taught in school to gain a strong rapport with their client, so they will act like your best friend.
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Before the divorce was there ever abuse (verbal or physical) in the home which required the police to visit your residence? -- No, She called the police four times in last 10 years and police never found anything like that and I was never arrested. She used to call police on small issues like one time she called the police because I gave more milk (bigger glass) to the kids and then she also admitted to the police officer that she was not sure to call police on this issue.
Before the divorce had either your ex or yourself ever filed for a PFA or PFS for any kind of abuse? -- This was the first time when she went for PFA and after that I filled for divorce.
Now PFA is not there after both the party agreed to it.
Both sides attorneys are ready for Joint Legal Custody.
When it comes to physical custody, her attorney is talking about Supervised Visitation and my attorney is talking 50-50.
I will not be surprised if her side attorney comes to some agreement one day before hearing. Because this is the same thing happened in PFA also.
My understanding based on discussion with other attorney says that Judge may go for One night per week and every alternate week ends for me. I am not sure.
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That's kind of what I thought. No evidence of abuse at all until the divorce. I'd say that's a pretty typical play. If you have any police reports confirming what you stated, that could help snuff that fire real quick. Of course, I don't think you have anything to worry about on the PFA. Nearly every time, the PFA gets rolled right into the custody papers :) Amazing how those two things can get combined. No, I don't mean divorce papers, I mean even custody papers.
I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of agreement was offered, but I agree that both the judge and the attorneys all want you to agree to some lesser parenting time right now so everyone can just move on. You'll be back though. Keep in mind that attorneys don't talk much about Limited Case management because they don't get paid by taking that road. If you can calmly and coherently discuss your case with someone, this option may work okay for you. I don't recommend case management, but LCM seems to be a good option. I've seen better success with parties who have someone in the social sciences background rather than an attorney. You can call your court and ask about Alternative Dispute Resolution options and they can mail you info. Then you can throw that wrench into the mix if the offer isn't good.
It is extremely likely that the judge will order your case to mediation as a first step. By curbing that and offering to do LCM instead, it makes you look reasonable and willing to work out the issues. Always be "reasonable."
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Guru,
Your dismissive attitude with regard to Domestic Abuse is an example of exactly what allows it to continue to be acceptable in our society.
Don't mistake criminal conviction or arrest as the only evidence of Domestic Abuse. I suggest you get some education. Safehome provides Free education on the issue and it appear from your statements that you are deeply involved in he Court process. So, it will be readily available to you.
The Legal system in Johnson County has been structured to resolve matters of Domestic Abuse before they get to the point of fatal violence. Domestic Abuse does not start with physical abuse and violence.
As such, Safehome provides support for a woman & children to separate themselves from a harmful situation before and immediately after it becomes physically dangerous.
The way the legal system has been operating allows the man to be free of criminal convictions through plea bargaining which reduces Court Costs, Jail Expenses and keeps the man working to provide Child Support.
I believe the purpose of this process is to restore equality in the relationship and keep it from escalating to violence while protecting the parties from life altering criminal convictions.
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I'm not saying I condone abuse (either way) and that we shouldn't do something about it. I'm saying there's two sides to every story, and a percentage of divorce cases involve a vindictive mom who is trying to gain the upper hand. There are plenty of cases of well documented history of abuse, but this doesn't appear to be one of them.
So in a trial, if you don't have pictures, criminal conviction, arrest, police reports, or any other PFA filings, what other evidence is there other than mom's testimony and mom's friend/family testimony? There's no physical proof, there's he said/she said.
The mere fact that Mom immediately agrees to dismiss the PFA upon a custody/child support arrangement immediately tells me that mom may have played the PFA card. If abuse was such a huge issue, why did she immediately agree to dismiss it? Why not file criminal charges?
Was I wrong in stating that there is absolutely no evidence required to file a PFA or PFS? As I recall, you simply walk in, fill out a piece of paper and have it signed by a judge. The judge nearly always signs it, unless you're a man.
So, does the Safehome shelter do an internal investigation of the evidence? Do they interview Dad to ensure there is actually abuse occurring or do they take mom's word for it? Do they also support men who are abused? According to their website, they are a free women and children shelter only: http://www.safehome-ks.org/portfolio/shelter/ Appears they offer free shelter and free legal assistance to women, but not men.
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Guru,
Interpret statements here as you may. But, FYI.
The PFA is a Temporary Order which requires a hearing within a set number of days. It would be either negotiated and dropped (which is preferred by the Courts) or set for hearing. Kansas statutes allow the Courts, DA & others to decide how to procede without the parties involvement. Once Temporary Orders are established and a Parenting Plan is put into place the PFA will be dropped as a part of the legal process. Contact restrictions will become part of the Temporary Orders so the PFA is superceded by those Orders and falls away. This will occur in a majority of the cases and has nothing to do with the validity or lack of validity of the PFA.
Once a Motion for Divorce is legally filed the matters of PFA, Temporary Orders and Divorce proceedings are automatically folded together.
The Criminal Courts try matters of abuse through a Magistrate Judge. This is what the DA try's to avoid for a variety of reasons. Criminal charges are never filed by the victim. They are filed by the DA's office if the case is serious enough. All others are plead out. Especially first time offenders.
Statistics document that the majority of abuse leading to death and harm to children is perpetrated by men onto women. This, among other societal reasons is why Safehome focuses on helping women and children. The model currently in place is one of the reasons why Johnson County has had a significantly reduced and sustained low homicide rate. Seek out the education on Domestic Abuse that I suggested and you will have ALL of your questions answered.
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Well friends,
Nothing happened that day. Her attorney offered couple of hours every evening with the kids and no overnight stay. I refused to that and said that I want either 50-50 or face the judge.
She said let us face the judge and after 15 minutes her attorney said we will take continuance because her (my wife's) translator is not here. This is the second time they have not brought her translator. My wife has worked in past, able to talk to Police, School teacher, principal, friends and her Attorney but when it comes to the court hearing they play the game of translator.
So now the court has given another date and also ordered for mediation.
This is frustrating....nasty game.....a package of PFA with divorce.....
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I'm not surprised that the whole thing was continued and put into mediation. Cases always go to mediation first and most local court rules dictate such. This attorney is doing exactly what they are trained to do - wear you down and make you cave. They only reason you've been to court so far is because this attorney wants to try to wear you down. I'm not saying that because that's what happened to me, I'm saying that because I've observed the court room for many many years. This is a very real tactic. They will drag you to court and just continue it. That's fine, it gives you more experience in the court room, and your ex is paying for every minute of it.
Here's what you should know: nothing in mediation is binding, the mediator cannot talk to the judge or the attorneys. You will pay at least $100/hr to sit there. I would suggest you go there asking the mediator for full residential custody, then "give in" and agree to 50/50. If that doesn't pan out, just leave it be and take it back to court. If you feel like the mediator may agree with you, and your are comfortable talking with someone on that level, you could take it back to court and request limited case management, where the LCM will actually render an opinion/recommendation to the judge. IF it goes in your favor, the judge sides with the LCM about 95% of the time and the actual trial will be shorter (cheaper). So this may be a good option.
I'm not sure if you are Pro Se or if you have an attorney, but if you are Pro Se, you can also play the game to your advantage. In fact I think playing the attorney game will gain you a little better foothold on the situation down the road. While the case is in mediation, no motions can be filed. BUT, that doesn't mean you can't file a subpoena for business records for her income or send letters to the opposing attorney to request certain documentation. This may sound underhanded, but running up your ex's legal bill may help you if you know what you are doing. This can give you leverage. In fact I've had 3 very experienced attorneys in the past tell me that a sharp, knowledgeable, and aggressive Pro Se is more dangerous than another attorney. The reason is that a Pro Se doesn't have to save face in the court room, has the exact same legal latitude on their own case, and knows all the "issues" better because they know them first hand. If you are Pro Se, make sure you don't downplay your advantages.
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So, it would appear the takeaway is twofold.... from my perspective
1. It would have been prudent to accept their offer if it was a step in the right direction with the additional statement that you would also be filing for a hearing in Court regarding the question of overnight stays. That would also have opened the door for 50/50 to be heard.
2. If you want to procede hire your own certified translator so they can't use that as an excuse to delay proceedings.
Have the person appear with you for the hearing. Instruct them not to interact or introduce to anyone until you are in the Courtroom and the hearing starts. The introduction can be made to the judge at that time if the lack of translator card is played again.
It is important to hire a Court Certified Translator or the person may be decided to be unacceptable. A Court Certified Translator should have a C.V. or Curriculum Vite which would outline their qualifications for the judge.
If their translator shows up you do not need to introduce your hired gun, They can sit silently in the gallery and listen. Later they can inform you of what the conversation between your x and her translator actually was and how accurate the translation was given to the court record.
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A Big Thanks for your reply and suggestions herewith.
Attorney fee is not an issue to my wife as I said she has got the attorney from NGO. I believe she is not charged for these hearings.
Attorney fee is not an issue to me as well as I am pro-se taking help from one Junior attorney for court processes.
The issue here is that her attorney is doing the things in bits and pieces and it looks to me that my wife and attorney both are lying on this translator issue.
Can I sue her attorney that she is supporting my wife's lying. Because if my wife can talk to her attorney then why does she need a translator?
Also I deposited the fee of USD 150 for mediation but this gentleman said that mediation will take time and this can be done by mid of January'2013 only.
If this is so then what is that Judge going to do in our next hearing on Dec10.
I am fine on their numbers for Spousal support and child support but her attorney is saying that she is going to fight for "Supervised Visitation" and I am going to fight for 50--50.
Now my question is:
1. Is Judge going to say no change until mediation is done that means I can not bring my kids to my home?
2. Is Judge going to give supervised visitation? Although PFA was taken back by my wife and her attorney?
3. Is Judge going to say 50--50?
4. Is Judge going to give something between 50-50 and supervised visitation?
I have enough reasons for 50--50 custody:
1. Couple of weeks back my son had an injury just below his eye in the school and she did not took him to the doctor for two days and then third day when I tried to took him to the doctor, she did not let me do that. Police came and then she agreed to take him to the doctor that day.
2. Their yearly physical check up, vision and dental checkup was not done on time since I was under restraining order and she did not take the kids to the doctor.
3. My kids 90% extracurricular activities are stopped. for remaining activities they are dependent upon the mercy of coaches and other parents.
4. How come a mother can call the police on an issue to give more milk to the growing kids?
5. I want to make sure she has enough time to look for the job and later she should not be load on me.
6.My wife is habitual of running to her home country. She ran away to her home country two years back for 6 months and left me and my son alone here and also two times she told to the police officer that she wants to go back to her home country.
7. She never participated into their school or activities or even for their Green Card, Passport renewal etc.
8. She does not do driving.
I am not sure if Judge is going to consider these arguments for me or not?
Looking forward for your ideas.
Thanks a lot to give your input.
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I think your case will really hinge on what you and your ex have hiding in the closet, if you know what I mean. If your past is sprinkled with criminal charges, arrests, history of violence, neglect, or any such issue, you could really be fighting a losing battle. If the case is just a matter of he said-she said, you'll probably have a better chance. There are many legal positions you could take on your case. I think there is merit to what KTM said about taking the deal then following up with a motion just so you could start seeing your kids. The longer you go, the worse it is for them and you. As a matter of right, everyone is legally due a custody trial anyway. So, you could take the option (I assume you still can), and you can follow that up with mediation. However, after custody is settled, you must demonstrate a "change of circumstances" in order to change custody. Some of these factors are black/white, others are more subjective and a creative attorney can make about anything work. If you think this case is just going to get drug out more and more, you may be best to take the deal to get your kids, and go from there. It also hurts your ex's case that you are abusive and a terrible father if she is offering to give you the kids. If she was so concerned about your abusive nature, why would she offer that deal?
I'm assuming this deal was offered verbal? If so, I'm not surprised. Send a letter to try to get that deal in writing. Then you have even more for your upcoming trial. You can simply say something like "when you offered to give me parenting time for a few hours a day in court the other day, what days did your client have in mind? I believe its important for the kids to spend time with me. Please advise which days your client was considering, and what times."
Your listed points for shared custody, to me, are not good ones. Most parents I talk with are upset and spend way too much time bashing the other parent and nearly no time bolstering their own abilities and benefits to the kids. As such you come off looking more like a vindictive, upset parent instead of a good-hearted, level headed, and reasonable parent.
I think your reasons should look more like:
- I've traditionally been the parent to take the kids to school, and my schedule is flexible enough to do that. I love to do it.
- I used to play soccer and had started working with my daughter to play soccer. She now cannot share that time/bond with me.
- I am a stickler for the rules and honesty. I want to make sure my children are brought up with the same values. Its important to me.
- My son is old enough, that he needs a positive male role model. Without a consistent role model. I've always been there for him, and now that has been ripped away, leaving him deprived.
You see how these statements nearly always start with "I" or deal with "me?" When you spend so much time focusing on how bad the other parent is, you forget how important your role is. Don't lose sight of that.
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Guru,
Points of correction (?)
I believe what was offered was supervised visitation.
Everything is verbal until accepted, than put in writing and filed with the Court or told to the Judge in a hearing and agreed by both sides present.
Stwary2002,
Because Legal proceedings are serious with long lasting consequences and often use terms not used in every day speaking the Court has an obligation to make sure that a non native English speaker has the opportunity, if requested, to hear everything in their native language. The entire thing... ALL rulings may be thrown out on appeal if the person states this was not done and they did not understand everything and the implications. If you were in another Country, wouldn't you want the same privilege?
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to stiwary2002,
Something that worked in my case was the judge (a fair judge) point blank asked her on the stand a series of questions such as, "Did <father> ever threaten physical harm to you or the children". She (Ex-wife now) answered "NO" on all questions even after she used every resource SRS, Family Crisis, Police etc to take the kids and hide. Not even my attorney had the nerve to ask or even suggested that we ask that - but he SHOULD HAVE. If YOU/SOMEONE ARE not GUILTY of abuse, then ASK HER ON THE STAND and tell your attorney that you are not playing like you are guilty. Your attorney will assume you are guilty of abuse in every manner. What that did is very powerful: it forced her to do an Admission of Fact on the record. At that point, the judge was fair to us both and we share 50-50 parenting time (and of course joint custody).
Just for the curious, as you might be wondering why she took kids and hid out and came back. She didn't come out of hidding, rather the Missing Children's Dept using every resource nationally, found them two days before her Mom was scheduled to travel half way around the world to where my Ex's home country. About out of legal ammunition, my Ex eventually started to say it was "verbal abuse", but Expert Child Abduction witness said, "Parental Child Abduction" ON THE RECORD. That is a Federal Crime and your local District court won't touch that one and your local attorney won't even bring it up. I'm Pro Se now and will stay that way.
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FatherOfMyKids1,
The area of Parental Child Abduction is a Legal specialty.
There is an attorney well known for that here in the state of Kansas, based in Johnson County and I have used his services.
There are appropriate Legal Resources available if someone is in need of help. It has not appeared to be an element of the case presented in this chain.
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Hello Friends,
@KTM -- Can you tell me the attorney name as I am scared that my spouse can run away to her home country in near future.
Also to let you know that there is no criminal legal cases against me. There were false police reports made by my spouse and at last she filled PFA while putting my daughter in front. This was done with a long planning with the other feminist lady, friend of her.
My mediation date is confirmed to end of Dec and will continue January next year. This mediation will keep going on and this is fine.
My only question is that What Judge is going to do on Dec12 for child custody, I mean parenting time to me? I am not getting this and my attorney also says this all depends upon the judge.
Can you guys guess on this part?
My guess is that Judge should give me One night a week and every alternate week end till Mediation is confirmed.
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Stiwary2002,
The attorney I am aware of in Johnson County Kansas and has special expertise in the area of Parental Child Abduction is attorney Ronald Nelson in Lenexa, KS.
Ask about what is called a limited representation basis. This means that he will only represent you on the matters upon which you both agree. If this type of contract is not put into place any Court filing on your behalf would make him your general attorney for which any party could contact him on any legal matter concerning you and run up your bill.
He would also be available to answer any of the questions you have posed here. He is thorough in his explanations.
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Thanks KTM. This attorney is very very expensive. But I will talk to him on your idea to him and see if that works out.
Also my attorney spoke to my wife's attorney and tried to do some bargain on Child access. The other attorney is threatening to my attorney that she will reopen the PFA case. I do not understand what does this mean? They filled the PFA and then took it back and now threatening to re-open that again.
Looks like they are making fun of court and the processes.
Do you have any idea what does re-open of PFA mean to them? How they can do this?
Your thoughts on this are highly appreciated.
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I believe if the PFA was voluntarily dismissed, it is dismissed. They would have to file for another one. Sounds to me like maybe your attorney lacks experience and the PFA is being used a leverage, as I've mentioned before. I would imagine this kind of thing happens all the time.
Do you have a filed court order with your case number indicating that the PFA is dismissed? If so, I don't think a judge would sign another one unless there was a hearing on it. I know I sure as heck wouldn't sign one right after the previous one was voluntarily dismissed.
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We do have the copy of court order that stays "Both parties agree to dismiss the case".
My spouse's attorney is just threatening telling all this non-sense, which is not making any sense to me. Can we put this statement in front of the judge telling that other side attorney is threatening to us.
She brought this statement when my attorney was talking to her about a logical child access to me. She is rigid on "Supervised Visitation".
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Stiwary,
It sounds like caution is being proposed on behalf of your children. Just go with it. There are other ways than a PFA for your wife's attorney to get the same result from the judge. This may cost you valuable time and money only to lead to the same cautious result. Threatening Court actions is part of the Legal process. That is one reason it is difficult to be Pro-Se. You do not know what is a real concern and what is accepted practice vs. intimidation. Do not let your self be provoked into an argument that will drag things out further.
Just go with what they are asking. Supervised visitation. This is a temporary process which allows the Court to observe that you are a parent who is not harmful to your children, that they are not afraid of you and will do well in your care without third party observation. This is no different than the process every parent who has a child in the hospital Intensive Care Unit goes through before their child is discharged to go home with them. It is an important part of the Court's responsibility to make sure your child/ren are safe and feel safe with you and mom.
The process lasts a temporary pre-determined amount of time. Then, the observation reports can be filed with the Court as evidence of your relationship with the child/ren. The next step is to ask the Court to award you unsupervised visitation & overnights and a parenting plan that works with your schedule.
If the child/ren do have distress or problems while with you alone, the process allows them to get counseling to help with the transition. Keep in mind that the goal is for you to have what would be considered a normal parenting relationship with your child/ren so long as you do not sexually or physically abuse them.
My experience is that most effective attorney's in Johnson County charge between $150-250 per hour with a minimum deposit of $5-10 thousand dollars for a high conflict (more complicated) case like what you have presented here. Attorney Ronald Nelson may charge a bit more because he has expertise that no one else has. But, some give free or discounted consultations so that you can both determine if the relationship between you will work and the goals you have are achievable.
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From my perspective this is all intimidation, and Mom wanting to be in full control. If there is no reason for Dad to have supervised visitation, then there's no need to do it. A PFA doesn't mean a parent is not a good parent. It may simply mean he/she doesn't get along well with the other parent. Why shouldn't Mom have supervised visitation? Who says she's not abusive or neglectful to the kids? Is someone keeping tabs on her? It seems to me that your ex is only trying to make sure parenting is as difficult as possible for both you and the kids.
I can respect KTM's, conservative, opinion here. I just know that if it were me, I would never agree to put my kids through the process of supervised visitation, and I would be immediately filing to change the temporary court order. I would also hold that tactic against her in court as trying to minimize contact with me, which is not conducive to a good, quality relationship with the kids. If she is willing to go to that length to ensure dad doesn't have access, what else is she willing to do? A good parent would be reasonable. If there were a documented history of abuse to the kids, or SRS had a file on the family, that would be completely different. It seems the abuse started when the divorce papers were filed. Seem ironic? I think not.
Everyone's case is different, and everyone reacts differently. Just make a choice you can live with.
This is the time when you need to document all of your concerns, issues, and experiences. Keep track of dates, times, where, how..... These things will be useful to you later (maybe years) down the road when you are back in court.
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This was another bad day for me. Judge ordered higher nbr for Temporary Support but said that this motion is only for Temporary support. If you want child custody then file another motion for that. This way I did not got anything.
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Hire an attorney. You need help.
The Court knows this and gave you a Temporary Support Order instead of one that would stay in place until there were a Legally defined "Change of Circumstances". Also, told yu what needs to be done to effect your Parenting Time options.
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Just a quick little ugly fact. On October 26, 2012, the Kansas Supreme Court in Brown (docket number 103758) ruled that there is nothing temporary about a child support order even though the Order itself says that it is temporary and the hearing might not have been with witnesses and exhibits.
djmlaw
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djmlaw,
I am not an attorney. I believe that you stated you are an attorney.
The NEW ruling you are referring to may change what has been common practice and I understand to be part of the Divorce process in Kansas. Temporary Orders have been put into place immediately or shortly after the Divorce is filed as to residence, support payments and parenting schedule if applicable. Until changed by later hearing with discovery or the Divorce is finalized.
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Dear KTM:
In a "normal" contested divorce, one side files a petition with supporting documents and, based on those documents, the Court enters a "Temporary Order" setting out the initial conditions of the separation such as visitation, spousal and child support, access to the former family home, etc. These documents are delivered to the other side who can then file a motion to modify the Temporary Order and produce their own documents. Usually there is a brief non-evidentiary hearing on the record and the Judge announces the results often with the comment that his or her order is meant to be "temporary" until the matter is settled or a further hearing. For example, the spousal and child support might be set during the December 15, 2012 hearing based on the higher income noncustodial parent's 2012 wage income year to date plus the annual Christmas bonus of 25% of that parent's annual salary sent out on December 25, 2012. Lo and behold, no December 25, 2012 bonus.
But going to Court is expensive and didn't the Judge say that this is all temporary so why not wait about 6 months until the full trial takes place. The Brown case might mean (remember that it is a new decision) that the Trial Judge can't go back in time in June of 2013 to change the child support Temporary Order of December 15, 2012 even though the evidence in the June 2013 trial clearly shows that no one got bonuses due to the company's financial conditions.
Being an attorney that sometimes has represented this higher income noncustodial parent, I can think several strategies but I would much rather be representing the lower income custodial parent in the June 2013 hearing. "TEMPORARY" CHILD SUPPORT ORDERS ARE NOT AS "TEMPORARY" AS YOU MIGHT THINK. Quite frankly they should be labeled: PRELIMINARY ORDERS (WITH NO POSSIBILITY OF CHANGING CHILD SUPPORT).
Good luck,
Dennis
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To follow onto this discussion, I think the judge has to set the support at some amount regardless. He has to base that on the temporary custody order. So if one parent has sole temporary custody, the other parent will be paying out the nose. Unless custody changes in a significant enough manner to require adjustment of child support, there's really no reason to change it. In this case I believe Stiwary is looking to obtain shared residential custody of the children. In this case a child support adjustment would most definitely be required. Even if 3 nights/week are awarded, a parenting time adjustment may be appropriate which would allow filing a motion to modify support.
If parents were reasonable and set up a reasonable parenting plan from the get-go, there may not be a reason to modify support. But as we can see, when parents start throwing PFA's and PFS's around, it's going to be a very contentious (and expensive) divorce.
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Thanks everyone and my special regards to Guru and KTM both for all the help here.
Looks like my ex and her attorney are not ready to be flexible on this child custody and I am just loosing the time so I am going to accept their proposal of first visit as supervised and then couple of hours in the evenings and then couple of hours in the day. This way i will be able to start something and then fight back for shared custody.
Also this will help the case to go forward and finish this divorce earlier than going for long long time.
I am also planning to pickup some experienced attorney now rather than stay around with this Junior guy.
Thanks again and I will keep you updated on the further development.
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Stiwary2002 -
I commend you for taking the time to look into things and think them through. I think you are making a wise choice. Please let us know how things progress.
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Hello Friends,
I am back in my case.
Mediation for Parenting Plan is going on.
Earlier I was agreed to all their demands for parenting Plan as per other attorney. My wife did not accept her attorney's proposal that was starting with supervised visitation till every alternate week end.
Finally her attorney (who is from NGO) decided to withdraw herself from her case because of non co-operation from her client (my wife).
I am not sure, what is this going on. How come my wife can reject the best parenting plan for her and worst for me.
I am sure even mediation will not be succeed because of her adamant nature. So now my wife will hire another attorney and then case will go to the judge.
I want to know your ideas, if this is good for me or not. My attorney is telling me that this is good for me because when her attorney will withdraw herself thru a motion then she will explain the reason to the judge and judge will not be happy about this.
Please let me know your thoughts and any suggestion from you.
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Well, not exactly. In my district, motions to withdraw are only heard if there are objections. Unless you or your wife plan to object to the withdraw, there will be no explanation and the motion to withdraw will be granted.
I think you need to up the ante and request that an LCM hears the arguments so he/she can weigh in and also make your trial cheaper. Your court administrator or alternative dispute resolution coordinator can tell you the advantages and disadvantages. I recommend you learn as much as you can before you go broke learning. You need to make smart and meaningful moves at this point or you'll just be in and out of court until you are both broke.
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Few Updates today in mediation:
1. We both agreed to start Unsupervised visitation Every Sunday from 12 -- 2 PM for three weeks.
2. Then 10 AM to 5 PM Unsupervised every Sunday for three weeks.
3. Then Both the attorneys and spouses along with mediator will meet for further plan.
4. This is also confirmed that her attorney is quitting. Today her attorney replied to mediator that she is no more her attorney now.
Let us see where do we go from here.
Thanks,
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Hello,
I am back here with a question.
My first Mediation meeting was successful and I am going to complete my kids visitation the coming Sunday.
My spouse's attorney filled a motion to withdraw and tis was granted by the judge without any hearing.
My spouse did not search for a new attorney yet.
My next mediation meeting was planned as attorney assisted mediation meeting and we both spouses are supposed to go with our attorneys and mediator. But my spouse does not have any attorney and she did not respond to mediator yet. I asked the mediator and she said that she is still waiting from my spouse to hear on the attorney and a suitable date. Mediator advised me to ask my spouse for this.
I am not willing to start any communication with my spouse. So my questions are:
1. I am not sure, if this is my responsibility or mediator's responsibility to bring both the spouses on the table.
2. What will happen when this coming Sunday last day time visitation is over. There are no further visitation on paper.
3. I am fine, if my spouse continues every Sunday day time visitation until she gets her new attorney. Do I need to tell this message to my spouse or mediator.
4. Also I want that my spouse should give a date for the next meeting unless she will keep dragging this case for unlimited time. How can I make sure this?
Please share your thoughts to help me out.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Best regards,
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1.) technically its the responsibility of the mediator, but the only thing that motivates them is the $$
2.) just use the same visitation schedule regardless. See if she goes along. If not, send to your attorney.
3.) yes
4.) you'll need to hold someone's feet to the fire here. If you cannot agree to a date and everyone is dragging feet, file a motion for the judge to set the date. That gets everyone motivated.\
Honestly you have to drive the show, when you are the one on the losing end. The other side has no incentive to move things along. Dads do not get the same assistance as Moms.
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Thanks Guru,
I have filled a motion for parenting plan and hearing is in the end of Apr'2013. I did not go for emergency because I want to take it easy.
I have multiple ways to put this case in front of Judge as my kids are 12+ and 11+ years now. what should be my criteria in front of Judge??
1. I can simply let Judge decide this matter. No argument here with the judge.
2. I can fight for 50--50 while putting some facts to the judge like she is not involved in any activities, dr appointment etc for the kids in last som may years etc. I can put 1000nds of little arguments here.
Which is more favorable these days to the judge?
Any input will be highly appreciated.
Thanks,
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Why is your motion scheduled so far out? Is this an evidentiary hearing (trial)? I think the 1000's of little arguments you put in there will do nothing but take away from your main arguments. Try to keep the story more about you, and less about her. Some of the judges will go for 50/50 as long as they can see there won't be any bumps in the road from you and it will be easy on the child. For example if you spend your time telling the judge how mom doesn't go to basketball games and fail to mention the fact that you live within 3 miles of school and the other parent, you've done yourself a disservice.
I'm not saying you should not point out your concerns with the judge. I'm just saying you need to always tie those in to how that concerns the safety of the child. Don't rant and rave about mom's personal lifestyle if it has no effect on the child. If it does have an effect, show that.
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I had this motion today.
My wife picked up a attorney just 15 minutes before trial starts.
This new attorney asked for "Continuance" and we opposed that.
This time wife did not said anything about physical abuse rather she complained of verbal abuse.
After 15 minutes of hearing Judge ordered:
1. Every Tuesday and Thursday from 5 PM to 8 PM.
2. Every Sunday 10 AM to 5 PM.
3. Ordered for GAL.
I am not sure how this GAL thing works here in KS.
My questions are:
1. Does GAL talk to only parents and kids? What if I provide a list of coaches, teachers and doctors and request GAL to talk to them as well.
2. Does GAL also do the Home evaluation?
3. How long this GAL will take to submit the report?
Please let me know your thoughts on this.
Thanks in advance,
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I'm not familiar with the acronym GAL. What is that? What county and judge did you have?
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This GAL guy is Guardian Ad Litem.
Thanks,
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I don't believe I've talked with anyone who has had a guardian ad litem before. Maybe someone else can weigh in here.
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Does anyone have experience with GAL in Kansas. I will appreciate, if you can share your experience and/or recommendations to me. I am father of two kids ages 13/12.
Thanks in advance.
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Does anyone have experience with GAL in Kansas. I will appreciate, if you can share your experience and/or recommendations to me. I am father of two kids ages 13/12.
Thanks in advance.
I had a GAL employed on my case for a brief period of time. Was an additional expense which did not add any protective value for my children. They act as the Court wants them too and confer privately with the judge. Unless there is documented/suspected evidence of physical or sexual abuse upon the child(ren) which needs to be testified about in Court to be from one or both parents I do not see any value in employing a GAL.
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Again I am back friends, any experience Please share your thought on this.
We had a hearing and finished with another date Oct18.
The case was started with other attorney came half an hour late without information.
The good thing is that no new allegations from other party and also they did not oppose 50/50 split rather they were crying for support money.
My attorney made it very clear to GAL (Guardian Ad Litem) and other attorney that we want clarification on GAL's parenting document and also we want 50/50 in any form.
GAL explained to Judge that she is working on plan and this is almost done. She has to fill in few informations and then she will submit her recommendations to the court. Judge asked her tell about your recommendation then she said few things like -- Family Counseling, deposit of passport in the locker with two signatures required and close to 50/50 custody.
When GAL said close to 50/50 then my attorney again said we are looking for 50/50 and the other party did not oppose.
Also Judge said to close this case as this has been a long time and start talking on property distribution as well. Judge also said that on next hearing I also want to know the status on property distribution as well. Actually Judge put up a pressure on us to work bit faster.
Summary of this hearing is that In last one year, my relation to my kids, which was started with NO CONTACT and is now close to 50--50 (as per the GAL's statement in the court).
Can someone explain what is this "Close to 50--50"?
Also the other attorney is talking about support money (not opposing the split custody)...how this can happen and why Judge is not considering the fact that other party is fighting only for money and I am fighting for my love with kids. GAL also met with both the attorneys to come up with this plan and then also the other attorney is concerned about deduction in support money. why GAL is not considering this point? I am already paying lot of amt (40 K every year, spousal support and child support both).....
Thanks in advance....
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Hello Friends, I am back again.
My divorce case is in Trial now. We are set for Pre-Trial next month.
GAL (Guardian Ad Litem) is still there and trying to make an agreement between the parents but this is not working. GAL recommended for 50--50 but other spouse is not agreeing to this.
Now we are set to Pre-Trial next month.
My questions are:
Q1. What is going to happen in Pre-Trial from GAL's recommendation perspective?
Q2. Can I request the judge to implement the GAL's recommended Plan?
Q3. What are the chances that Judge will listen to my request since the divorce is so much bittered.
Q4. Does the KS statute stop to have 50--50 custody, if the parents are NOT co-operative. My kids are 13 and 12 years old.
Please share your experience.
Thanks in advance.
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1. GAL will likely recommend to the Court "50/50" Parenting time since that is generally what the Court expects is best for your child(ten). Remember that Parenting Time (a determiner of Child Support) is different than "Custody". Which in almost all cases will be joint.
2. You can, when asked by the Court agree with the Gal's findings.
3. The Court will likely do as the GAL suggests since the GAL works for the Judge/Courts legally representing your child(ren's) presumably in their best interest.
4. I do not understand this question.... Joint custody is the ruling in the majority of cases.
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Thank you very much KTM.
I am getting Every Sunday (from 10 AM until Monday Morning (drop in the school)) and every Tuesday / Thursday from 5 PM to8 PM. This was also ordered by the Judge last month. GAL is trying to make other spouse agree for shared custody.
I am not considering the Child Support Amount at all, the only thing I want is Shared custody and/or 50/50 custody and GAL is with me on that.
In my case other spouse is using false allegations since the first day and nothing is proved yet in last 1.5 years. Other spouse is adamant and not co-operating at all.
So My last question is that "Does KS statute stop to give shared custody, if both the spouses are NOT co-operative to each other" Do I get punished because other spouse is NOT co-operating me.
Thanks in advance,
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Hello Friends,
I am back in my case. My Trial has been set for Last week of Feb'2014. Any guidance on TRIAL will be highly thankful.
I have got Every Saturday Thru Monday morning on my kids along with every Tuesday and Thursday from 5 PM to 8 PM.
My Previous question is that "Does KS statute stop to give shared custody, if both the spouses are NOT co-operative to each other" Do I get punished because other spouse is NOT co-operating me.
Thanks in advance,
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What kinds of information are you looking for? No, I don't think the court will hold your ex's being uncooperative against you. I know others who were in the same situation. The ex's relentless attacks and vindictive behavior did not affect the outcome. If anything it hurt her case. Be sure to remind everyone that everyone is uncooperative when a court action is pending - that's just how it goes. Show that over the years you have always tried to get along and provide for your kids.
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Thank you Guru, I got the answer from the details you provided.
My case is confirmed for the trial now.
Nothing is resolved yet so everything is going for the trial.
I will appreciate, if anyone has experience to share for the Trail like What to do and What NOT to do, kind of thing.
Thank you for all help,
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Dear Friends,
Just a quick update. I got my divorce done last week and Child custody is still pending. Next hearing is July21.
GAL was bringing us close by to make it Joint Custody and my 50% was going to start from Dec21--2013.
But then someone complained against me again Emotional Abuse in DCF <<Department of Child and Family Welfare>>. I believe this should be my spouse or someone from her friend but good thing is that again DCF Officer did NOT find anything against me and they also closed the case.
Just for a quick rewind..I have been alleged by my spouse that I was physically, verbally and now emotionally abusing my kids. This is going on since last almost two years. Nothing is proved yet and so far I am neat and clean. But the case is extending and causing more bitterness.
Now GAL has suggested my case to give someone who is LMSW. GAL has buy 120 days from the court to get something done from this LMSW personnel. I believe this is kind of case management and I think their recommendation will be additional support to GAL to give it to the court.
Anyone, if dealt in past with case management or LMSW kind of situation, Pleas let me know if you can share any details or information as I have no clue about this.
Thanks in advance.
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It would help to know who the case manager is.
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Barb Sharp