Author Topic: Is this correct???  (Read 17811 times)

Deemer

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Is this correct???
« on: July 12, 2012, 12:51:37 AM »
I will try and keep this short, but I need some advise in whether or not I need to consult an attorney.  My current salary is $80000.  My ex has full legal custody over our 4 children in which I did not contest during our divorce last december.  I did not contest because I had no money to hire an attorney.  Her father is the one who gave her the money for hers.  Anyway, I know I will need one to regain joint status.  My question is that after taxes and health insurance, I make about $1250 a week. No extra things with-held pre-tax.  I am ordered to pay $2563/month for support and $1083 in Allimony for a total of $3646/month.  Or $911.50/week.  This leaves me $338.50/week to live on.  She hasn't worked in 13 years and has no income.  I see my kids one night a week and every other weekend. I am really having a hard time with getting by.  I make 80K and cant afford to live on my own, pay bills, or provide an envoronment for my kids when they are with me that is enjoyable.  I understand the ex needs money for our kids, but something just doesn't seem right.   She doesn't work, but gets $43752/year to my $17602.  Please advise. 

Guru

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2012, 12:23:56 PM »
Deemer,

If you can use the child support worksheet found here: http://kschildsupportforum.com/kansas-child-support-calculators-and-forms/kansas-2012-child-support-calculator-free!/  fill this out the best you can, and message me.  I'll give you the email address you can send it to.  I'll check it over for any errors.  As far as the alimony goes, I'm not sure, but as far as child support is concerned there is a federal law which mandates the maximum amount that can be taken.  Read this statute: http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_60/Article_23/#60-2310 about KS, then here is info about the federal max: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cse/pol/IM/2001/im-01-06a.htm

Send your sheet with all your children's ages and we'll take a look.


Guru

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2012, 05:49:11 PM »
Deemer,

Based on your take home income of 1250/wk, you have a monthly income of 5416.  By federal law, they cannot order you to pay more than 60% of what you bring home, so 3250/mo is the maximum they could order you to pay.  If you are remarried and have another family, they can only order 50% (~$2700).  Child support and alimony are tailored to basically award very near these percentages, so the fact that your order is over that amount means there's probably an error.  The reason there is an error is most likely because you were pro se and they all took great advantage of you like they do most dads.

If I simply assume you have 4 17yr olds, the child support amount I calculate is about $2000 + insurance costs.  You should verify on your child support order that questions C.3 and C.4 have been used.  These subtract alimony from your income, and add it to hers.  If this adjustment is not made, the child support order will be too high.

Deemer

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2012, 08:43:13 PM »
By take home, I mean NET.  After taxes and health insurance.  My gross is right around $1596/week or $6384/month.  Went to court today because I was unemployed for 2 1/2 months and they upped my monthly payment to $4750/month.  So, every week, she gets $1187.50 and I get $112.50. I cant even support myself on $112 a week.  I am beyond frustrated. 

Guru

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2012, 09:48:23 PM »
That's just not right.  When they figure up your "disposable earnings" don't be surprised if they don't subtract health insurance although everyone HAS to have health insurance.  Actually, thanks to Obama, that is now law I believe, so since, it is, maybe your disposable should subtract health insurance too.

These people have really taken you to the cleaners.  This is why men are so frustrated with the system because everyone just sees $$$ and don't really care about the fact that dad can now no longer afford to eat let alone live in a home where he might hope to care for his children in.  If all these facts are true, this is an interesting case and many here can benefit by knowing how this all turns out.  The amounts that have been ordered are against federal law and the judge, court trustee, DCF, and the judge all know this is wrong too, yet they just let it happen.  You won't have much left over, but you should at least have 40% of the 1250/wk, which is $500/wk.

A bit of advice - when you take this issue back to the court, make SURE they make it retroactive back to the date of the original order where they screwed up.  Then they will give you all that money back (actually just take less from you monthly for a while).  When you make more money, they're going to stick it to you.  When they screw up, you better be sure and stick it to them.

Deemer

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 12:05:39 AM »
As sad as it sounds and it really does give me a sick feeling, I could actually live with $500/week.  I'm not about hording my income.  I understand the ex needs money to support the kids, but $115/week is absolutley obsurd.  Especially since in allimony alone, she makes $270.75/week. 

Guru

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2012, 02:51:38 PM »
Any updates on your case?

KTM

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2012, 05:39:47 PM »
Guru, I believe the question was... given the circumstances should He contact an attorney. Unless you are a licensed attorney giving Free legal advice here, which appears to be the case, it would appear from your comments that the answer is Yes with your stated opinion following.

Guru

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2012, 07:16:19 PM »
KTM, was my answer not correct?  Is something wrong with helping others free of charge?  Maybe you haven't read the mission of this website.  Here's a link: http://kschildsupportforum.com/kansas-child-support-forum-information/what-this-site-is-about/

When people post personal information like this, do you think they are requesting a YES/NO answer?  Or would they rather increase their knowledge on the matter and make the decision for themselves?  I believe the later is the case most of the time.  People just need to figure out if the topic is over their head or within their ability.  I can't judge that and neither can you.  So, why don't we just help the people the best we can?

About legal advice - I have no idea why you are hung up on that subject.  Here is a link to another site who is offering advice: http://www.dadsdivorce.com/father_divorce_forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46058
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 10:02:34 PM by Guru »

KTM

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 09:39:04 AM »
Guru,

I'm sorry. Let me be clear about why I continue to comment on your site that consultation with a licensed attorney is an important consideration.

I think if someone is giving qualified professional advice than it is important to state that so that your readers know what value to place on the information. It is one thing to give and share information which may or may not be helpful to the recipient. It is another to stand up in a Court of Law before a judge on record and take legal responsibility for the consequences (good or bad) of the information. We can say whatever we like in your forum and not have to pay the consequences in a Court of Law or for years afterward. The person taking our words and applying them to their own Legal Case must pay that price.

KTM

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 09:49:23 AM »
Guru,

As to the second part of your question to me "was my answer not correct?":

I believe that your answer was  inaccurate from my experience. However, I am not an attorney. Specifically with regard to claiming money back "retroactively". There are specific rules a judge must consider and as I understand it the date of filing an appeal or a modification will dictate what can be legally claimed. From the presentation of facts it does not appear there was an appeal filed on the original Orders. So, the need for urgency would be to file a specific, detailed modification motion. It is my understanding that from that date forward would be the only time frame the Judge would be allowed to consider for reimbursement of any possible overpayment.

There may be many more legally incorrect facts in your statements or not. But, I am not qualified to ferret them all out.

I urge caution. Especially when dealing with other peoples children, livelihoods, money and relationships.

Guru

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 12:25:56 PM »
So do you pester authors on other forums too about offering their opinions?  Why have you chosen to single us out?  There are books available from authors which are not attorneys.  These books give tips on how to be successful in the court room.  Have you written them?

Specifically with regards to an error by the court, the court is at fault, and therefore the judgement would be retroactive back to the original date of the order, not when he caught the error.  I believe we call that the statute of limitations.  If the court ruled in error and cited no reason for the erred judgement, it can be appealed, period.

When I state my opinions, I consider how things really work in the court room and what the impacts will be.  It is illegal to lie in court, right?  Attorneys and parents do it many times every single day in court.  Neither are ever held in contempt for such an infraction even when they are caught red handed.  The court is not going to hold a party in contempt for asking to make an order retroactive.  There is no harm in asking.  Many times with child support, you don't even deal with a judge, you deal with a hearing officer, who is not a judge.  He may or may not know the actual law surrounding the request.  The party making such motion would be well-advised to know the law.  Many attorneys need to look up the laws themselves to make sure.  Why can no one else do that?  They can!

I will agree that for most people, hiring an attorney is a good option.  Legal work is serious business and should only be attempted by those willing to spend the immense effort and time required to learn the laws of the land.  However, if you think real hard about it, why would someone be reading and posting on forums if all they wanted to do was call an attorney?  Shouldn't the question be, "who is a good attorney?"  Then this website would only be a list of attorneys which can be found in the phone book.  Case and point, people want information, opinions, stories, case law, and moral support.  That comes free here.

I will add this - attorneys are salespersons just like all others.  Some are honest, others are crooked.  I have heard many times of an attorney promising the world in the free consultation, but once the retainer comes in and the bills start stacking up, the truth comes out that the outcome will be drastically different.  This is when most parties decide to go prose because they are tired of getting the run around.  Usually successful prose parties are of the same intellectual ability as an attorney, if not more so.  An attorney once told me "a pissed off smart attorney on the other side just makes me laugh, a pissed off smart prose on the other side is dangerous."  He said the reason for this is because a prose can actually make more work for him because a prose will spend all of their time on the case, where he cannot.  Nothing angers an attorney more than being beat by a prose.  So hiring an attorney or going prose are both a gamble in the family law court room.  Everyone has to make their own choice.

KTM

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 06:46:12 PM »
Oh Guru,

It is a shame you feel pestered and "singled out" by my comments. I hope your readers appreciate the balance.

KTM

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2012, 07:14:52 PM »
For all who are considering Pro Se representation, representing yourself in Court, it is my understanding based upon the statistics that the majority of Pro Se litigants do not prevail (win) when the other litigant is represented by an attorney.
There are several reasons for this:
1. An attorney specializing in Family Law knows the Law, the rules of the Courtroom and standard practices or interpretations by each judge and jurisdiction they work in. That is an advantage earned by being there frequently.
2. The Court has specific expectations of attorneys and their ethical obligations to the Court emphasized by the fact that it is their workplace on a daily basis. (whether one chooses to believe they behave ethically or not). Thus, the Court gives greater weight and credibility to an established attorney over a Pro Se litigant. The attorney will have already earned respect and trust from the Court whereas a Pro Se Litigant would be starting from scratch.

The outcome of your case will be determined outside the courtroom in written documents.

3. Regardless of the outcome of the case a Journal Entry must be written and submitted to the Court in writing within a legally predetermined number of days. There is a process determined by Kansas statutes and the Kansas Supreme Court which dictates how this happens. This document becomes your final order. It can vary widely from what either you or the other party believes was said in Court and will still become the official Order if filed with the Court Clerk and date stamped. The Court will assign someone to this task and will not assign a Pro Se litigant to drafting this document. This is a huge disadvantage to a Pro Se litigant. The most a Pro Se litigant can do is attempt to challenge the Journal Entry if it is not what you think happened in Court or was ruled by the judge. Although there are ways to challenge the Journal Entry they become costly and time consuming due to the involvement of the Court Reporter, Transcripts and new hearings. FYI refer to Kansas Supreme Court Rule 170 and K.S.A. 38-2320 and K.S.A. 38-2278.

I have won in Court as a Pro Se litigant more than once and had to spend thousands of dollars in transcripts and attorneys fees to reverse the damage of this hidden reality. I have learned that it is much more expensive to fix a grievous error than to pay an attorney to advocate for you and get it right the first time.

If both parties have attorney representation the party having filed the motion will be assigned to draft the Journal Entry. If one party is Pro Se the attorney of the other party will be assigned to draft the Journal Entry. I do not know what the Court does in the case that both parties are Pro Se.

Guru

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Re: Is this correct???
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 09:00:59 PM »
True, most prose litigants do not prevail.  But, I will tell you I have personally drafted plenty of journal entries and orders myself.  I have filed objections based on the transcript of the hearing, and I have prevailed numerous times.  I have filed orders persuant to rule 170 in the past when the attorney on the other end did not cooperate.  Point being, it can be done.

That being said, writing legal language is not the same as writing an essay about your favorite book.  There is a process for filing of documents as KTM has mentioned, and objections must be sent and/or filed in a timely fashion.  The court will not give any slack to a prose, but a good prose will also know how to keep the judge from giving the other attorney any slack either.

Financially, it may be to your benefit to have the other party's attorney draft an order/journal entry.  The other party will have to pay the attorney's fees for doing so, and you will not.  If there is something in the drafted journal entry you disagree with, you simply send the objections to the attorney along with new proposed language.  If you cannot agree, it will be set for hearing for the judge to decide on the language.  Transcripts can cost $20 or $500 depending on the length and what part of the hearing you want transcribed.  Usually just the part where the judge orders is the only part of interest, so if you limit your transcript to this part only, it can save a lot of money.